Olin Moyles Ghost

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Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

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  17

  DC Talk on Generaton

  by Cynisister in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as i will not be in attendance for this year's district convention, i would love to know exactly what the talk on the new meaning of "generation" actually states.

  i visited my recently widowed mother (who found the "truth" when i was a toddler, and therefore i was raised in the religion - quit it totally 3 years ago) and had a lively discussion on the implications of this "new light".

  she seemed really disturbed about all the "new anointed" ones coming out of nowhere.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost
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  14

  Notes to give someone on new generation...fact check and advice...

  by notverylikely in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  these are my notes on the new generation teaching i am preparing to give to someone.

  if anyone here wouldn't mind reading over them and giving them a quick fact check, i would appreciate it.

  right now these are just rough talking points for me.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Sure. They have to do this, because we don't use 360-day years.

  They use 360-day "prophetic years" to get to the 2520 days. Then they use "a day for a year" to turn the 2520 days into 2520 years. But instead of using 360-day years to arrive at 1914, they switch to 365/6 day years (the Gregorian calendar that we use today) to count down to 1914.

  Think about it this way. If the WTS was consistent, they would say that there were 2520 years of 360 days each. This would have caused the end of the seven times to come earlier than 1914.

  Farkel has a classic post explaining this in his typical deadpan humor. I'll try to find it and post a link.

  Edited to post this link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/169775/1/time3d360-days-7-times3d2520-days-2520-days3d2520-365-day-per-year-years

  Check out the post by Farkel on that thread...I'm copying it below (hope he doesn't mind):

  This explains it all. It is an except from my "Handy JW Apostate Glossary":
  
  "1914" A.D. - the single most important date in JW doctrine, and is the result of using 607 B.C as an "anchor date", using the book of Daniel, Chapter 4, as proof.
  
  This is based upon the following, simple reasoning:
  
  7 "times" doesn't mean "7 times". It means "7 years".
  
  But,"7 years" doesn't really mean 7 "years", either. It means "7 years of days".
  
  But, the "days" in "years of days" doesn't really mean "years of days, in which the days actually mean "days", but means "years of days, in which the "days" actually mean "years".
  
  Therefore, it is easy for even a fool to see that "7 times" REALLY means "7 years" but which really means "7 years of days", but which then really means "7 years of days which aren't really days, but years", or simply stated "7 years of days of which days are really years". To put it even so a child can understand it, it means that the "times" aren't "times" at all, but are "years", which aren't "years" at all, but are "years of days", which aren't "days" at all, but are "years" AFTER all, even though they were originally CALLED "times"!
  
  Got all that? There's more.
  
  Strangely, however, for all of this to work, this fulfillment, based upon an ANCIENT text, still requires the use of the ANCIENT calendar for the MODERN fulfillment to work out to 1914. Therefore, ancient text + ancient calendar = modern date in modern calendar.
  
  When doing your calculations, don't forget that there is no "zero year" from B.C to A.D. C.T. Russell forgot that and was quite embarrassed about it. The official WTBS explanation in later, revised, editions of his books was that "the battery was very low in his calculator at that time" and he wasn't aware of it until after the material was printed.
  
  Lastly, the book of Daniel was prophesied to remain "sealed" until the "last days", which, as we know, began in 1914, according to the simple reasoning just presented. So, Russell had to figure out a way to, somehow "unseal" Daniel before it was prophesied that Daniel WOULD be "unsealed" so he could then put forth a prophecy which pointed to exactly when Daniel WAS to be "unsealed", namely at the start of the "last days", in 1914.
  
  Russell, therefore, successfully used a "sealed" book to calculate the exact date it was to be "unsealed", which at that time it was officially, "unsealed", but Russell "unsealed" it before that, because he wanted to know beforehand when it WOULD be "unsealed", because only THEN would he know when the "last days" were to start, which was, of course, when Daniel actually WAS to be "unsealed". Got all that?
  
  I apologize to the reader for using so many words, but, this stuff is so, well, "DEEP"! (See "607" B.C" and "Reasoning".)
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  15

  Does any version of the CD contain mags and books prior to 1970?

  by notverylikely in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  just checking.....

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Google Books has a bunch of old Russell and Rutherford era publications. Go to books.google.com. You can do advanced searches, for example to look for Rutherford books, search for "Joseph Franklin Rutherford" as author. Google Books is cool because (1) it's not an "apostate" source and (2) they are scans, not just text.
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  14

  Notes to give someone on new generation...fact check and advice...

  by notverylikely in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  these are my notes on the new generation teaching i am preparing to give to someone.

  if anyone here wouldn't mind reading over them and giving them a quick fact check, i would appreciate it.

  right now these are just rough talking points for me.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Hey NVL, that's a good start. I agree with Black Sheep--the best way to reason with a JW is to ask questions. That being said, I'm sure there are times when a direct approach works. When you're dealing with JWs, you have to make sure all your facts are bullet-proof. If they find one fact that's wrong, they'll discount your whole line of reasoning.

  Russell and group first said end would come in 1871, then 1874, then 1912, then 1914. The year 1914 is calculated using day for a year calculation and 7 times meaning 7 years, so 2520, 607 B.C. to 1914 A.D. is 2520 years. However, this only works if you use years that are 360 days in length. Insight book says "In Prophecy. In prophecy the word “year” is often used in a special sense as the equivalent of 360 days (12 months of 30 days each). (Re 11:2, 3)." If a real year is used, this gets us to 1949 A.D.

  Russell didn't say the end would come in 1871 or 1874. Barbour and other Adventists who associated with / influenced Russell pointed to 1874, but Russell didn't. Russell did point to 1874 as the start of the last days (exactly how the JWs now 1914).

  Russell and the WTS absolutely did point to 1914 as the end, then 1918, and 1925. These are well-documented. For helpful quotes and cites to WT literature, see http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php. If you're gonna use dates, use those dates. Google Books has scanned copies of a lot of the older publications, including the Studies in the Scriptures series and the "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" booklet. So, if a JW gives you heat about where you got your info (and this is a common diversionary tactic), it's helpful to be familiar with Google Books. Here are a couple of helpful links:

  • Millions Now Living Will Never Die: http://books.google.com/books?id=V0gMAAAAYAAJ (see pages 88-89 for discussion of 1925)
  • The Finished Mystery: http://books.google.com/books?id=dDQSOQV2RBIC (page 485 talks about God destroying church members by the millions in 1918)

  Regarding the 360-day year, it's interesting that the Society uses 360-day years to calculate the # of years, but then 365/6-day years to count down to 1914. So, here are the logical leaps that you have to make to get to 1914:

  1. You have to agree that, despite what every single historian says, Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC.
  2. You have to agree that Daniel's 7 times prophecy had to be fulfilled twice--even though not one single scripture says so.
  3. You have to agree that the 7 times, which meant 7 years in the first fulfillment, mean something else in the second fulfillment.
  4. You have to agree that the 7 times in the second fulfillment mean 7 years of 360 days each, where each "day" means a year of 365 or 366 days each.

  Isn't it all completely clear and "Bible-based"? Do you ever feel STUPID for having believed this nonsense in the first place? Sometimes I do...
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  723

  The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

  by theMadJW in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  MadJW: "Olin, even CHURCHOIDS see the signs of the Last Days Christ spoke about coming true; it is DATES that usually are off, or wrong."

  My response:

  And that's supposed to prove WHAT, exactly? If you read a little history, you would realize that "churchoids" have been falsely predicting The End since the inception of Christianity 2000 years ago!! Their track record is just as bad as the Watchtower Society's track record. Talk about "the blind leading the blind!"

  Check out this book for a nice overview of Christianity's long, glorious tradition of End-Times nonsense: A History of the End of the World (http://www.amazon.com/History-End-World-Controversial-Civilization/dp/0060816988).
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  65

  Things in the past that show you that your doubts started earlier than you thought

  by sabastious in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just talking to my wife this morning about underlining or highlighting the wt paragraphs.. when i was 13 years old i would fight with my dad because i refused to highlight the answers.. the reason was because i wanted my comment to be genuine.

  i felt that highlighting the "answer" made me lean on just using that as a crutch and not truly putting it in my own words.. i still hold that argument now, and i am 26. the only reason you would ever have to highlight something in a study book would be if you needed to remember it, maybe it is fairly complicated or subtle information that could be easily forgotten.. so many times in the wt the "question" has the same phrase that's in the paragraph!

  it's literally like playing connect the dots.. so what i would do is not highlight during the family study.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  This is a great thread. When I think back on the matter, my first doubt occurred when I was 6 years old. I was in school (first grade) and one of my classmates had a birthday. His mom brought in cupcakes for the class. I told my teacher that I would need to be excused during the celebration.

  The teacher asked me why (she knew I was a JW, so I was surprised she asked why). At that moment, I realized that I didn't have a good answer. My little mind was racing, thinking about the two birthdays in the Bible where people were executed, but it didn't seem logical that God didn't want me to have a cupcake just because 2 people were executed 1000s of years ago.
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  723

  The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

  by theMadJW in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  MadJW stated: "So, you both think the Catholic Church was backed by God?"

  My response:

  Thanks for the non-response. The simple fact is that your "worldwide preaching work" argument only works if the Watchtower's "last days" theology is correct. As I recall, you have recognized that the Society's last days/ prophetic interpretation theology is kooky. So, you're basing your argument on quite a flimsy foundation, my friend.
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  723

  The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

  by theMadJW in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  MadJW stated: "Casper, that preaching was told about the Last Days, not about the rule of the Catholic Chuch in the Dark Ages!"

  My response:

  Thanks for making my point. Your position (that the "worldwide preaching work" is an identifying mark of "God's organization") depends on today being part the Last Days. Stated another way, if today is not part of the Last Days, then the existence of a "worldwide preaching work" is just as irrelevant now as it was in the 1400s.

  I'm well aware that your clergy (the WT Society) teaches that we're in the Last Days that began in 1914. If they're wrong, then the existence of a "worldwide preaching work" is irrelevant.

  Hence, my point about the Catholic church in the 1400s. Don't you agree that if someone who, in 1400, figured out that some Catholic teachings were false, should have left the church, even if there was not another worldwide organization to join? Some did so, and were persecuted for it. I think they did the right thing, even though they did not join a big religious organization with a "worldwide preaching work." Why should today be any different?
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  723

  The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

  by theMadJW in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  MadJW stated: "So, if all groups ARE flawed, what about the one Jesus said would be preaching the Good News of the KINGDOM world wide?"

  My response:

  Who was the group that was preaching the good news of the kingdom worldwide in 1600? In 1500? In 1400? In 1300? etc... According to the Witnesses, nobody was, right? So who are we to say that somebody is necessarily doing it now?

  Sure, there are lots of groups that are preaching various things worldwide--for example, the Mormons preach the Bible + book of Mormon; evangelicals preach their gospel, Catholics teach their gospel, JWs teach their gospel, etc. They all teach something different and they are all wacky and crazy in my humble opinion.

  So, really the Witness argument is this: nobody else is teaching the Witness/Watchtower gospel worldwide. Well, duh! Setting aside the fact that the Witness/Watchtower group is not really worldwide (China, N. Korea, most Muslim countries, most of India, etc...), this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course nobody else is spreading the Watchtower gospel except the Watchtower. It proves nothing!

  I can picture MadJW back in the 1400s as a Catholic, defending the Catholic church: "Who else is preaching the gospel worldwide--just us Catholics, right? Why are you heretics turning your back on the Church. Sure, the Church has its problems, but nobody else is preaching the gospel worldwide!"
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  42

  Most annoying quotes you are going to hear from JW's

  by XPeterX in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  something like: "would jesus do that/go there?

  " i tell them: "would he own a luxurious bmw or mercendes?".

  what are some quotes/expressions invented by jw's that really pissed you off?.

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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  "he's a brother"

  "worldly"

  "fortunate" (as if that's completely different from "lucky")

  "spiritual" / "spiritually strong" / "spiritually weak"

  "the truth"